Ep. 93 - Book Club - Recursion [Transcript]

Jan 29

William (00:03.966)

So have you guys ever had a piece of furniture, a flat tire?

Alex (00:08.03)

A dream that you could, that you, that, that you could achieve, um, that... No one knows the reference I'm making there?

Cody (00:17.706)

I think he's having an ulcer.

Dallas (00:17.995)

I don't think so.

Alex (00:19.714)

Oh, it's a meme, it's this little kid and he's like, did you ever have a dream that you could, that you could do, that you could, and he just stutters back and forth, no? Oh. The people who do get that are gonna love it and the people that don't get it are gonna also probably not love it, but you know.

William (00:28.374)

Nope.

Dallas (00:28.584)

Ha ha ha, nope. Ha ha ha.

Cody (00:31.75)

Nope.

William (00:38.73)

But have you ever had a piece of furniture get a flat tire?

Alex (00:44.642)

piece of furniture get a flat tire. Is it a wheelchair joke?

Dallas (00:47.802)

Tire swing at a flat tire once.

William (00:50.234)

No, it happened today. So we had a yard sale on our whole street. All of the neighbors organized, like, we're going to have this big yard sale, advertise it, and get a bunch of people in. And one of our neighbors, she had a 19th century dresser. The thing's like 130 years old. And it was just gorgeous.

And she wanted next to nothing for it. I was like, and somebody walked up to it and called for their son, like, hey, bring the tape measure. And my wife went, oh. So I'm like, I have to go over there and buy it. Like, done, done deal. So it has the original casters on the bottom with wooden wheels. Okay, that's important. That comes into play later. So we start rolling this thing down the road, okay?

Alex (01:42.773)

Okay.

William (01:46.718)

We were bebopping all the way over to our house. This is our next door neighbor. One of the wheels decides to stop spinning, but we continue to push the stressor toward my house. And all asphalt is basically giant sandpaper. And so by... Really high large grit sandpaper. And so by the time we're like, why is this, it's really hard to push.

Alex (02:06.134)

that really, really high, like large grit.

Cody (02:12.356)

Oh no...

William (02:15.858)

And I looked down and the road had literally sanded a flat edge on one of the wheels on the stressor. And so it literally had a flat tire. It was...

Alex (02:31.883)

I am so curious to see how you are going to segue that into our topic tonight.

Dallas (02:32.946)

AAA doesn't cover that.

Cody (02:37.834)

See, tire, segue, now topic. So, you know, just it's all connected. It's all connected.

Dallas (02:47.29)

We're getting a nosebleed.

William (02:48.403)

See, trust the process. Trust the process.

Cody (02:50.67)

It's a recursive... I mean, my bad jokes are just a recursive memory. And many of which are dead memories.

William (02:57.666)

Uh, your bad jokes are just painful enough that... ..

Alex (02:59.21)

No, no, no.

Dallas (03:02.95)

I'm getting back in the tank, I'll be back.

Cody (03:05.642)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Alex (03:07.53)

What is wrong with you three? What a- no, it doesn't make any sense and I read the damn book! Where are you-

William (03:09.359)

I promise, Francis, we'll all make sense soon. Well, hey, everybody.

Cody (03:14.192)

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, but I listen to Don't Get Me Started, and I don't think anybody understands anything ever. Like...

Alex (03:28.49)

What? No! No, we do understand so many times. Oh dear God. Where did the- hold on, time out. Where did the dresser have any tie-in to the book recursion?

Cody (03:29.994)

Ha ha!

William (03:42.754)

It didn't.

Alex (03:46.014)

What? Why are we talking about it?

William (03:50.838)

It was small talk before the episode got started. You made it weird!

Alex (03:58.494)

We intro the podcast to talk about- Okay... I told- I knew last episode I needed a shot I didn't know I needed two shots

Dallas (04:08.678)

Heh heh.

William (04:13.734)

Oh, well, hey, friends, welcome back. This round's on me. Apparently I have to make Alex's a double. Uh, tonight a doctor, a lawyer, a pilot and a professor have all walked into a bar. And it is book club. And apparently anytime that you go to book club, small talk before you dive into the book is strictly not allowed. So I will, I will.

Alex (04:31.154)

B-Club, B-Club.

Alex (04:37.066)

No small talk.

Cody (04:38.514)

It has to be all serious all the time.

Dallas (04:39.191)

Business Transaction.

Alex (04:40.702)

What's your deal? And is God dead? As Jeff Winger would say. No small talk.

Dallas (04:45.286)

Heh heh.

William (04:45.463)

Hahahaha

William (04:48.771)

Um, what this is, is this, is this book club round two?

Alex (04:52.65)

This is season two of Book Club, in the same way that we're in season two of Choose Your Own Adventure, we're in season two of Book Club.

Cody (04:53.051)

Yes.

William (04:55.335)

This is season two.

Choose your own adventure. I just, it's so exciting. Our favorite.

Alex (05:02.786)

four fresh pics from four lame people. So, I mean, it's amazing that our books are always so good, but our.

Cody (05:05.851)

Mm.

William (05:07.675)

Easy.

Cody (05:08.446)

Hey, easy now. Easy now. One of our most highest viewed episodes. We're getting ready to celebrate its one year anniversary tomorrow. Thank you very much.

William (05:11.338)

Ha ha ha!

William (05:19.262)

Yeah. Oh yeah, by the time this episode comes out, Cody and Michelle will have celebrated their one year wedding anniversary. Happy anniversary, sir.

Dallas (05:21.062)

what that is.

Dallas (05:28.439)

Ohhhh...

Cody (05:30.318)

And at the time of recording, at the time of recording, happy anniversary to you, Alex, for falling off the ladder. It's been a year.

William (05:37.378)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Alex (05:38.07)

Wow. Has it really been a year? Why is my knee still messed up? Should I have gone and seen a doctor? Because I think I definitely broke something. But who needs a doctor when you've just got good old fashioned rub some dirt in it, you know?

William (05:41.782)

It's very... It's...

Cody (05:47.166)

Hehehehe

William (05:47.274)

Probably.

Cody (05:53.809)

Exactly!

Alex (05:54.774)

This week's episode is sponsored by Dirt. Fixes everything, Dirt. Check them out at dirt.com slash doctor and lawyer to save 15% on your first order of Dirt.

William (05:55.188)

Pretty sure that happened.

Dallas (05:55.352)

You rub dirt on it until that bone goes back in.

Dallas (06:01.306)

Just eat it.

William (06:07.714)

Ay, ay, no, I'm pretty sure no one's given us that promo code. Well, for my book hub pic, I'm leading out, we'll charge here, I have picked Blake Crouch's follow-up to Dark Matter. Now this is not a sequel in any stretch. There are no Stephen King characters popping up in the background during 900 pages of world building exposition.

Cody (06:08.974)

Ah!

Alex (06:34.89)

I was a little sad about that. I was waiting for all the Stephen King characters to show up, and none of them did.

William (06:40.242)

You're right. Yeah. Anyway.

Cody (06:43.166)

What is it doing here?

William (06:47.126)

Ah, okay, I'll let that one slide. Yeah, I'll let that one slide. No, don't shake your head, don't shake your head. It's... But I have picked Blake Crouch's follow-up to Dark Matter, the book Recursion. And as in our previous book club discussions, the first section will be our spoiler-free review. We will go to break.

Cody (06:56.562)

So we all know that-

William (07:15.41)

And then we will come back and we will talk. We will do spoiler talk and final thoughts on the book after we're able to discuss everything freely. So, uh, it makes, it makes me, uh, it makes me excited that, uh, I threw another one out there and it seems like the response was even better to the first one.

across the board. Well, except Cody, he's made that very clear inside the group chat that he preferred dark matter. But, okay. Go around the horn here, Cody, you can go first since I did kind of spoil your initial review. Spoiler free talk. Initial thoughts on the book. Rating out of 10.

Alex (07:39.318)

For me, yes, for sure.

Dallas (07:44.889)

Ha ha ha.

Cody (07:45.467)

I did prefer Dark Matter.

Alex (07:45.802)

Whoa, spoiler!

Cody (07:53.063)

All right.

Cody (07:58.138)

Alright, so just to be clear, I just want this to be abundantly clear. It's a great book. There was just a couple of editorial choices. I would have if I was his editor would have asked a little bit more of. But it is a great book. I my feelings on it when I watch.

when I read Dark Matter, or listened to Dark Matter, I listened to it in such a way that it was probably unhealthy to my brain because I listened to a nine hour audio book in like one day. That was probably because I could not stop. Like I could not stop. It's a testament to the book. I was able to put down recursion. And so that's the assessment I'm basing it off of.

William (08:42.102)

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that's a testament to the book.

Cody (08:56.49)

Is that it was a good book, but I was able to stop and put it down. Whereas Dark Matter, I was just like, what is happening? And could not put it down. And so overall rating, I would give it. Yes. Oh, overall rating. I would give it a 7.75 out of 10.

William (09:05.173)

Yeah.

Alex (09:18.89)

Oh, whoa!

William (09:19.094)

Ooh, okay. Hmm.

Cody (09:21.158)

Yeah, 7.75 out of 10. So like, very, very close to an eight. I'm not sure if I can give it an eight. So, I'm not sure, yeah.

Alex (09:24.473)

Ow.

William (09:31.874)

Okay.

Alex (09:32.138)

I am ready to hear your critiques in the spoiler talk section because I am on the flip side I gave dark matter a like seven five if everyone recalls and a few of my critiques that were non-spoiler of dark matter and non-spoiler of recursion here was that dark matter needed about another 150 pages for pacing purposes

William (09:42.582)

Hmm.

Alex (10:01.442)

to be fleshed out. I could tell that Blake Crouch clearly had a concept that either he was not confident in or that he was trying to write like a movie script. And that left me going, there needed more pacing.

William (10:19.386)

Interesting. Okay, interesting. Yeah, keep going.

Alex (10:22.974)

with recursion, he gave that extra 150 pages, 200 pages, that I felt dark matter needed. So that's one thing that he did. And the second thing he did was, without spoiling the book, but he jumps back and forth between points in time and characters who are experiencing those points in time.

which wound up adding a very, very fun structure as a reader, because as you're going through, you get to this very pivotal moment, and then the next section is the other character, and you're like, no, bring me back, which keeps, it just keeps reeling me in every bit along the way. I also think that in terms of... Dark Matter is the what if.

book. I would say so Dark Matter is the what-if. Recursion is the, without getting into spoilers, the power of memory and much, much more. And I think the actual concept of recursion was far more interesting to me than Dark Matter as well. So given that

I really like Blake Crouch's style and I wanted more of it and I liked the topic more. I think that recursion in reading it, I'd give it a 9-5, which is the same score, spoiler for my other upcoming pick, well for a later season, upgrade was also a 9-5.

William (12:05.647)

Whoa!

Alex (12:16.966)

I think he, like, those are neck and neck for me. So, The Recursion gets a nine, five. It didn't capture that perfect 10 spot that I think Project Hail Mary has still, like, held rather firmly. But this was, I devoured it, and I handed it to Ali, and I was like, please finish your other dumb book. It's probably a great book that you're reading, finish it now.

William (12:43.349)

Ha!

Dallas (12:43.399)

Yeah.

Alex (12:45.578)

And she's like, but I'm in the middle. Finish, finish your book so you can read this book instead because it's better, I guarantee it. And in fact, she has said it is far better. And now I'm reading the other book and recursion's better.

Dallas (13:01.711)

Ha ha

William (13:01.786)

Interesting. Okay, Dallas.

Dallas (13:07.595)

I really enjoyed dark matter. It did feel like an action movie. I don't know if he thought this may be his only shot. So like make it as action packed, like you get one go and then it was successful so he can spend time and money on his other ventures because this felt like he spent more time.

William (13:31.049)

Hmm.

Dallas (13:34.194)

And he had the space to really flesh this one out more so than dark matter. Um, I, the trope in this one is one that I feel like in especially recent pop culture is very well worn, but he did a great job of making it fresh and a good perspective on, on what he, he picked.

Alex (13:36.893)

Yeah, yeah.

Cody (13:38.013)

Hmm.

William (13:59.226)

I'm picking up what you're throwing down. I see that like not to the spoiler section without actually saying it. Okay, okay, yeah.

Dallas (14:04.326)

Let's see, yeah. I think I, I don't remember what I gave Dark Matter, but I still stand by my, like there's no perfect 10 that is perfection, never attainable. So I'm going to give this one 8.7, I think. So, which is for me, I think for me is probably similar to what you gave it, Alex, because for me, 10 is unattainable. So that.

William (14:24.187)

Okay.

Alex (14:31.603)

Okay. Sure.

Dallas (14:33.85)

kind of drops everything. So I think that's where it's at.

Alex (14:35.646)

Mine's, my 10 is, it's dang near impossible, but it's, I mean, there is a concept of a 10. Like nothing is perfect. So it just seems cruel not to give it a perfect score when it's as close to perfect as, you know, like.

Dallas (14:44.26)

Right.

Cody (14:47.002)

Oh. There's some C.S. Lewis philosophy I could get into there with you on that.

Dallas (14:48.346)

Ha ha.

Alex (14:52.07)

9.9 repeating, you know, just doesn't have the same ring as 10, so. But

William (14:52.534)

Hehehehehe

Dallas (14:56.905)

Right? Whenever I finally read a book that's a 10, I will never read any other book because I'll be like, this ruined books for me. I can't do it. We're not there yet.

Alex (15:08.492)

Alright, William.

Dallas (15:08.718)

William, what are you going?

William (15:11.238)

Okay, so I'm going to read Recursion's synopsis here. Memory makes reality. That's what New York City cop Barry Sutton is learning as he investigates the devastating phenomenon that the media has dubbed false memory syndrome, a mysterious affliction that drives its victims mad with memories of a life that they've never lived. That's what neuroscientist Helena Smith believes.

And it's why she dedicated her life to creating technology that will let us preserve our most precious memories. If she succeeds, anyone will be able to re-experience a first kiss, the birth of a child, and the final moment of a dying parent. As Barry searches for the truth, he comes face to face with an opponent more terrifying than any disease. A force that attacks not just our minds, but the very fabric of the past.

and as its effects begin to unmake the world as we know it, only he and Helena working together will stand a chance of defeating it. But how can they make a stand when reality itself is shifting and crumbling all around them? At once a relentless page-turner and an intricate science fiction puzzle box about time, identity, and memory, Recursion is a thriller as only Blake Crouch could imagine it, and his most ambitious, mind-boggling, and irresistible work to date.

Alex (16:34.514)

And that was written before upgrade had come out. So, I mean like.

William (16:34.909)

I agr-

William (16:39.146)

Yeah, I agreed with everything in that until the last paragraph Cody I agree with you Dark matter edges out recursion for me in this ranking and I will tell you why Alex you said it felt like That he was writing an action movie When I look back on my experience with dark matter

Alex (16:52.542)

Oh no! No!

Cody (16:54.133)

Ooh, ooh.

William (17:08.514)

I do very clearly see an Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. And while the premise was very trippy, sure, it had a strong narrative and a strong structure that I could follow, and my ADHD brain was like, yes, okay, I know what's going on, okay, perfect. It still, like, flicked the little, like, twists and the turns, and it was, uh...

It was exciting and unexpected to the end. Recursion, even on revisiting it. There were moments when we were bouncing back and forth between different perspectives, and I found myself thinking, okay, yeah, we get it, okay, we get it. Come on, you're not Stephen King. Okay, come on, let's.

Alex (18:03.618)

That's just cruel. That was as good as a Stephen King. Ah...

William (18:08.983)

I still really, really like it. I do, and it's why I brought it forward as the book pick. It's almost, Alex, I know your opinion on Upgrade and I know my opinion on Dark Matter, and this kind of felt like the two towers in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Alex (18:29.135)

Uhhh... North or south? Okay. Whew! Golly...

William (18:32.662)

No, no, no. In Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy, like, yeah, it was a good movie. Yeah, it really was. But the magic of the Fellowship of the Ring versus the grandeur of the Return of the King, it was like, okay, yeah. It said sophomore outing for me. And I say that in if we're making the loose trilogy of Dark Matter Recursion and Upgrade. I know he did Wayward Pines before he did Dark Matter.

Alex (19:01.74)

Yeah.

William (19:01.898)

but it did feel like a sophomore outing. Alex and I were having the conversation, and we can get into more of this in the spoiler chat, that it was really interesting revisiting this, given the subject matter, and memories and revisiting memories and how I had pictured things versus how they actually happened versus my recollection of the book.

Alex (19:17.302)

Memories, revisiting, yeah.

Cody (19:20.178)

Mm-hmm.

William (19:29.158)

Anyway, I will give this an 8.2.

William (19:35.846)

out of 10. And I do that to kind of slap in the face of your grading scale that you are only allowed to do at school there. Cody, whenever you said that you can give 185, a 70, what, 50 and 30? That's all you're allowed to give? Yeah. So instead of an 8.5, I'm going to give an 8.2 just to...

Cody (19:49.294)

Yeah, pretty much. But yeah. Yeah.

Cody (19:56.386)

I- and that's why I did a 7.75. It's just like something- I couldn't quite give it an 8, though it kind of deserved it, but it was like close enough, basically.

William (20:01.164)

Perfect. No, I love it.

Dallas (20:01.263)

Ha ha ha.

Alex (20:12.055)

Alright, so a cumulative score of 33.95 divided by 4 is an 8.49, which I am going to round up using sig figs to go to 8.5.

Cody (20:31.57)

I think that's respectable. I think that is respectable.

William (20:31.894)

Perfect. Yeah.

Alex (20:34.571)

Wow. I think that is criminally low for this book. But it's not even my pick, and yet I'm defending it harder than the person who picked it.

Cody (20:38.826)

Dallas (20:41.21)

Ha ha ha!

Cody (20:49.034)

I'm sorry.

Dallas (20:51.726)

pick the next book that I hate.

Cody (20:55.294)

Pilgrim of Tinker Creek.

Cody (21:00.469)

I don't know, I would never subject you guys to that nonsense. Ever.

Alex (21:03.83)

Well, with a criminally low score, we're going to go get a refill, get our next round of appetizers up at the bar, and when we come back we will get into our spoiler talk for our book club this month, which is Recursion by Blake Crouch. We'll see you all in a minute.

Cody (21:24.17)

Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do

William (21:27.658)

Why do you go to the prices right every time?

William (21:32.306)

I mean, it is, it's a banger.

Alex (21:37.486)

It's just kind of ingrained in us that they were the show that went to break and always played, you know, upbeat music.

Dallas (21:42.822)

music.

Cody (21:44.402)

That's true. That's true.

William (21:46.542)

During the heightened cortisol levels of our sick childhoods when we would stay home and watch the prices, right?

Cody (21:54.184)

Rest in peace, Bob Barker.

Dallas (21:54.618)

You're not wrong.

Alex (21:55.326)

Okay, so I went to the bar and Tom had a really bad nosebleed. I'm not entirely sure why. He said he thought he remembered our drink orders and he gave me dish water. Cody has green milk, Dallas has blue milk, and William, I think this is a Shirley Temple and it's actually made the right way with ginger ale. So I don't know what's going on with Tom. He's kind of crying. He thinks he remembers a wife he used to have.

Very... Very strange.

William (22:25.831)

Listen, I'm not complaining. Pass that over here.

Cody (22:27.829)

And isn't there a detective and a scientist sitting in the table down from us? Oh, that's true. That's true. Yeah.

Alex (22:31.726)

They're flirting really hard, but I mean, kinda strange. I'm gonna leave them alone.

William (22:34.778)

I heard her say when she walked in, you look like you wanna buy me a drink.

Alex (22:38.818)

That was a great pickup line for her, honestly. I'm rooting for him. Let's see how this turns out for them. We'll pick up with them at the end of the episode.

William (22:41.342)

It really was, it really was. And even, well if you haven't realized by now, we are entering into spoiler talk for the book Recursion by Blake Crouch. So if you have not read the book, why are you listening to this? And if it's a good book, it is a really good book. Regardless, disregard everything I said before. That was a dead memory. Disregard it.

Dallas (22:57.561)

the

Alex (23:00.246)

Yeah, it's a good book. I don't understand what you guys are going on about.

Dallas (23:05.156)

Ha ha ha!

Cody (23:06.09)

Ha ha ha!

Alex (23:06.774)

First of all, you know what, you know what? I've developed this bad rap between the three of you. You all have turned me into the Judas.

Cody (23:16.178)

So what you're saying is, don't get me started.

William (23:19.286)

Hehehehe

Alex (23:19.346)

No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Not saying that. You all have turned me into the scapegoat as the guy who is always negative about things, but here I am espousing the beauty of this book, okay? So, let's get into the actual spoiler synopsis first, in that what is happening is simultaneously in the book we are following Barry, the detective, in present day.

Dallas (23:21.542)

Ha ha ha!

Alex (23:48.118)

uh, set in 2019 when the book was released, and Barry is a detective, he goes to the scene of a crime, and this woman is about to unalive herself off a building because she claims that this husband she had in another life will come and save her because his wife did the same thing and he wasn't there to stop it. And so Barry is sent on this

wild goose chase to track down this woman's, I gotta use air quotes to say husband, because there's no record of her ever having interacted with him. There's no, it's not like she was married to him and he's gaslighting her. There is no connection between these two people. He has lived his own life. So Barry is sent off down that rabbit hole. Meanwhile, we are following Helena Smith, who's a scientist whose mother is

dying slowly of Alzheimer's and she is trying to build a algorithm that can extract human memories So that we can relive them and she's doing basic studies She has no funding and she is approached by the shadowy corporation They say they will give her unlimited funding to build the chair

And for us as the reader, we're like, what is the chair? We have no idea. And so that is where our story starts. Helena is sent off to an oil rig. Her story is taking place in 2005, 2005 or 2007, I think. About, we'll just call it rough decade earlier.

William (25:23.574)

2007?

William (25:29.026)

I think it was, she went to the Oregon 2007 and she was there for two to three years and it went up to 2009, 2010, yeah.

Alex (25:36.034)

So her story, when we start the book, is about a decade before Barry's story. And slowly as recursion is progressing, those two stories start to intersect and meet. And what we find out is that Helena's chair that she has designed to be a way, it's an immersion tank where somebody sits in it, they get a rush of DMT, and they are supposed to be able to do it.

William (25:50.271)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (26:05.166)

feel as close to the memory as possible so that they can map that using a little skull cap and now they can actually allow people to relive those memories. But her shadowy financier has figured out that there is another use for this, and that is if someone dies while in the memory chair, they are sent back in time.

when that memory takes place, creating a branching timeline where they can do it all over again from that point on. And that is the crux of the story. So Barry, as a detective, is now tracking down how this shadowy organization is using the chair, but he is unaware of that. And meanwhile, Helena is trying to stop her employer from using that for his own gain.

Cody (26:43.294)

Mm-hmm.

William (26:44.982)

So good.

Alex (27:02.594)

from ethical purposes. Is that a fair? OK. I think we can. That's a good starting point to launch into conversation. And if somebody wants enough spoilers to go, OK, now I want to read it, I won't. There will be points where they go, I didn't want to know that. But now you know enough to get your feet wet.

William (27:06.97)

Oh yeah, it's an absolutely fair summary. And every time.

Cody (27:07.873)

Mm-hmm.

William (27:13.195)

Sure, yeah.

William (27:17.483)

Yeah.

Cody (27:19.048)

Yeah.

William (27:23.742)

And as you, as you progress further in the book, you realize that false memory syndrome is somebody has used said chair and it's they've gone back in time to step on the butterfly to alter the present and decisions and differing timelines cause you to remember previous timelines and it's

Alex (27:47.014)

once you reach the point of where those timelines would have stopped and restarted.

William (27:53.162)

Yeah. And the, this is what I love and I have not read upgrade yet. And I'm just based on my experience with Blake Crouch and his ability to take a concept and build an entire story around a concept that is, I would say it's, it's weird, they both have enough fantastical elements to them where you're like, okay, yeah, this is definitely sci-fi. But.

Cody (28:19.614)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (28:21.039)

Yeah.

William (28:21.482)

They also are grounded in enough scientific truth where you sit there and go, but could they, hmm.

Cody (28:27.25)

He's.

Alex (28:30.29)

I said the same thing to Ali. I said I reached certain points in a book where I'm like, yeah, that's normal. Wait, no it's not. What are we talking about? That doesn't exist. That's not a thing. Like, oh, I gotta.

Dallas (28:37.536)

Ha ha!

Cody (28:38.61)

Well, I mean, there's been an ongoing theme in this whole book club ever since Dallas's pick of scientifically believable sci-fi. Uh.

Alex (28:47.882)

Yeah, like giant human-sized anthropomorphic rabbits just suddenly overnight. Yeah, that was...

William (28:48.67)

Yeah.

Cody (28:53.102)

Well, at least in terms of Project Hail Mary and Dark Matter and... Yeah. Project Hail Mary, Dark Matter...

Dallas (28:53.286)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

William (28:56.219)

He said, he said Dallas's pick. The Constant Rabbit was a great book. Don't get me wrong. But the fact, and whenever they started going through the description of our perception of reality is all memory. It is. Even though that we feel like it's real time. There are still.

Alex (28:59.894)

He said there is a theme among all of our picks.

Dallas (29:00.252)

That was after mine, before mine.

Alex (29:05.426)

and just wait till my pick this month, so, you know.

Alex (29:16.845)

Yeah.

William (29:23.842)

nanosecond delays from our optical receptors, registering what we are seeing to our brain to go to our cerebral cortex in order to discern and evaluate. Like the image coming in through our eyes is inverted and our brain has to correct it and process it in order to tell us what is happening around us.

Alex (29:43.774)

I mean that's half the reason that babies are so bad, like newborn infants are so bad at riding dirt bikes. They cannot understand why the whole world's upside down yet. That's not where you thought I was going with that, was it? You were like, let's see where he takes this. Dirt bikes, interesting. Well the babies just don't have very good visual cortex understanding yet. They don't. It's upside down.

Dallas (29:53.606)

Right, yeah. That's the only reason why.

William (29:54.466)

Bye!

William (29:58.514)

I... You took that dirt bike and ran it right off the side of the cliff. I... I don't know.

William (30:11.124)

You're correct sir, it's all kind of shaping like light and dark.

Cody (30:13.494)

I feel like my high school classes, my high school classes right now where I'm just like, what? What?

William (30:19.45)

What is happening?

Dallas (30:20.998)

I'm gonna get glasses that flip things upside down and a dirt bike.

Alex (30:21.59)

You? Both of you are wondering what is happening, mister? I'm gonna start this episode talking about an armoire that we shoved down the street. And you, mister... I'm gonna make a Stephen King joke. 9.2 out of 5 on my own joke. Thank you very much. I don't understand. Yeah, right. You understood from day one.

Dallas (30:28.902)

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

William (30:35.658)

Ha ha ha!

Dallas (30:36.582)

Cody (30:41.898)

Ha ha ha!

Dallas (30:41.926)

I'm gonna roll up to people with babies with a pair of glasses and a dirt bike, and I'm like, I'm gonna need to do an experiment. Just bear with me. But trust me, this is gonna work out. You're gonna be amazed.

Alex (30:47.556)

Hahaha

Cody (30:48.487)

Hahaha!

Alex (30:53.89)

Ha ha ha!

William (30:53.937)

Bear with me but trust me. Famous last words.

Cody (30:54.064)

Eh.

Dallas (30:56.574)

Yeah. Can I put these glasses on your baby, please? Step one.

William (31:01.51)

That whole premise of if you reawaken a memory with enough vivid detail that you return to that point.

Cody (31:13.386)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (31:15.018)

Now, he does enough of the pseudo-science, mumbo jumbo discussion that they kind of, he weaves it into reality where you're like, oh yeah, I could see how that, wait, no, that's sci-fi, that doesn't, but he does it at a level that is believable and understandable, just like in the same way that Andy Weir would do it for The Martian or for, like that's the beauty of Blake Crouch,

William (31:15.184)

I... It felt...

William (31:31.466)

Yeah.

Alex (31:45.054)

you are able to release like that suspension of disbelief just for a moment where you go yes naturally in this world the science works

Dallas (31:55.47)

And I feel like with this one, he used enough of a hook that like, I bet everyone has a point in time in their past that they wish they could go back to and change and he got you with that. Because now like we got to follow this through because like, even if there is like a little bit of suspension of belief with some of the science, he's got you because you're like...

Alex (32:06.667)

Yes.

William (32:06.862)

Yeah.

Cody (32:08.106)

Mm-hmm.

Dallas (32:21.058)

Yeah, I would love to go back and change things. So let's see where this goes because that would, everybody has that somewhere.

Cody (32:27.559)

I mean, like going back to Dark Matter, I mean, it's almost like Blake Crouch's sifting through his own regrets because both Dark Matter and recursion have very similar themes because the villain in Dark Matter is somebody who's like, I didn't get the girl and I want the girl now. And I want the girl now and go into a life where I had the girl.

William (32:39.685)

Ooh.

Cody (32:55.694)

Um, so it's almost like maybe there's some psychology there where he has some regrets in life. I don't know. I know nothing about this man. But...

William (33:03.602)

So it's in the reason why this felt like such a follow-up to dark matter for me, especially dark matter with the box you could experience other realities where different decisions were made.

You couldn't change it. Like you could you could drop into that reality where things are subtly different or you could drop in when it was like nuclear fallout and a wasteland. This one was like.

Cody (33:29.246)

You're not going back in time, it's an alternate reality.

Alex (33:32.982)

But it's also not your choices that created that reality. You were just stepping into an alternate world.

William (33:41.566)

But your choice in the past did.

Cody (33:43.73)

Yeah, it splinters off. That's the multiverse theory.

Alex (33:47.07)

When you're in the box, you are... It's a glorified Schrodinger's cat situa- or a scaled up version. So the fact that you have not perceived any reality means that all realities are possible. And they are not dependent or contingent upon the actions that the pr- uh, I forget his name in Dark Matter. Uh, that Mr. Matter hit what his decisions were. Yeah, yeah. Um...

William (33:56.394)

Mm-hmm.

William (34:13.81)

Mr. Matter. Yeah.

Cody (34:14.611)

Miss you.

Alex (34:15.806)

I can't remember his name to save my life. But it wasn't contingent on his actions. It's not like he caused nuclear Armageddon or he caught like, but his choice of just stepping into a universe just means that it exists.

William (34:32.03)

Well, so the way that I had perceived it is every universe that he stepped into chronologically was at the same point in time As his current universe in the past and that's why the main and So in the past the main character He develops his box to go find a reality where he stayed with Daniela

Alex (34:39.582)

Yes. Correct.

Cody (34:42.373)

It's the-

Alex (34:44.586)

In the way you said at the same time in the past, what are you talking about?

Alex (34:58.241)

Right.

William (34:59.414)

to abduct the version of him in that reality where he stayed with Daniela. Like the decision has already been made. He's not going in the past and changing his decision.

Alex (35:08.946)

So when he enters the box, time is still moving linearly. And so when he gets out of the box, he if he was in the box like at 8.02 in the morning, he would step out at 8.02 in the alternate reality. And however long he spends outside of the box, it continues. So he goes back in at 8.05. He could spend in the box as long as he wants. The next time he steps out, it'll be 8.05.

Cody (35:09.694)

Whereas...

William (35:13.439)

Yes.

Cody (35:26.194)

That's what I was saying, time travel.

William (35:38.634)

Yes, so this is, the multiverse has branched, and he's able to step laterally into a different branch. This book felt like, okay, but what if I could go back and change it? And that's why this felt like the—

Alex (35:45.894)

Correct.

Alex (35:51.73)

Yes, yes.

but not to the extreme of nuclear Armageddon or, well, ironic, which we'll get there. But again, like, what are the repercussions of making changes to the

William (36:03.45)

I mean...

William (36:08.496)

And he could have stepped into a reality where...

I don't know, something 600 years in the past has triggered the next ice age and that's why he steps out. Either way, this felt, yeah and dark matter, this felt like you had the ability to go back to the point where that pivotal decision that branched the multiverse happened and make a different decision.

Alex (36:22.496)

in dark matter, yes.

Alex (36:32.85)

You can only go back as far as your memory is strong enough. That if it was so impactful on you and your life, for good, for bad, for neutral, but as long as your memory is strong enough, you can go back to that point.

William (36:37.031)

Exactly. Yeah.

Cody (36:48.219)

There's no killing Hitler unless you're in your 90s. Like, it's within your lifetime. Yeah.

Alex (36:51.07)

which is interesting because they talk about that. So, I mean, there is a point where Helena's chair is, you know, she finds out that it's being used by her funder, and she's not happy with that. There winds up being a raid where they take over the chair, is taken over by the government, and they set up this task force to try and ethically use it.

for just a small portion of the book, which was super fun because that's like a, you're like, whoa, we're here now. And they talk about like, could we get a veteran who remembers his childhood in the early 1900? Could we do that? But then it was also like, yeah, but if we change that, the ramifications would be astronomically worse than just going back within one's own lifetime within the...

Cody (37:42.756)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (37:48.482)

present of the chair's existence, you know?

William (37:51.53)

the great grandparents of Helena even could have never met and she is never born and she can't make the chair and yeah.

Cody (37:59.942)

William, do you remember the Pendragon series? There was the Bobby Pendra... The Bobby Pendragon, the Travelers. Not the King Arthur, no. No, this is a different series.

William (38:02.716)

Oh yes.

Alex (38:05.582)

I haven't thought about that series in forever.

Alex (38:13.862)

Oh. Okay, because that was also a good series about a, nevermind, okay.

Cody (38:19.018)

So, in one of the books, he goes back in time to, like, there's like three variants of Earth, and he goes back in time to the 1930s, and we find out that the, what was it, the Hindenburg blimp crash that happens in the 1930s, if they had to let that crash because of the butterfly effect, because if the blimp had survived, World War II would have gone a completely different way.

William (38:32.146)

Yeah.

Cody (38:46.19)

And so it's almost like that when you're dealing with time travel is, you know, you want to save the day here, but what are the ramifications on down the road? And something like going back in time and killing Hitler. A lot of people survive that would marry different people that would people who would not exist that would otherwise exist because of the choices that are being made. And that's ultimately Hellenist choice. Hellenist stance here is, is that humanity is not capable.

of processing that much information and taking that much into account without destroying itself. And eventually, in this timeline, they did. They ultimately destroyed themselves, and it honestly proved her point.

William (39:21.282)

Thanks for watching!

Alex (39:27.994)

not from the actions of the chair being used to change the present, but from humanity's response. And I think that's what was really interesting, is it wasn't... So I'm gonna give a light spoiler here for 11-22-63, which is another great go back in time, what are the effects of, you know, the butterfly effect. Stephen

Cody (39:40.243)

Yeah.

William (39:40.497)

Yeah.

Alex (39:56.674)

But in one of the universes, he steps out and nuclear Armageddon has broken out because that's just what wound up happening is one thing led to another, dominoes start toppling, but it was due to a massive change he made. In recursion,

The reason that the world is coming to an end, that all of these horrible events are happening, is because if it were to be weaponized, if the chair's power was to be weaponized, then it's mutually assured destruction. And so now these ultimatums are made by nations like, don't use the chair. We're all feeling the effects, stop using the chair. And they keep going back in time trying to stop other people from using the chair.

Cody (40:33.128)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (40:46.482)

and now all hell breaks loose, quite literally. And it's not from them going back beyond, like, more than just a couple years trying to stop using the chair. And it's very interesting that it's not the effect, like, it's not the cause and effect of their choices that

Cody (40:50.122)

Mm-hmm.

Cody (41:09.937)

It's the inverse of mutually assured destruction. Nations have nuclear weapons, and therefore we don't use them against each other because otherwise the process would be catastrophic. Whereas now it's like this chair exists, we have to use it so we can beat the other guy from using it.

Alex (41:27.37)

right and if but then it became all right everyone stop using the chair otherwise we're going to now use nukes and so it was just it was very fascinating that that's the if we all wanted to do over then life would get really messy for somebody else and so i like how

Cody (41:50.942)

It's honestly a secular version of the problem of evil, which is, you know, if you went back and eliminated all pain and suffering in a cause and effect kind of universe, what factor are we not taking into consideration here? What is someone else's pain taking away someone else's pain? You know, what unintended consequence would that cause? And humanity does not have the capacity to understand that.

Alex (42:18.666)

I'm not touching that one.

Cody (42:21.979)

Yeah.

Dallas (42:22.647)

But I do.

Alex (42:23.603)

What I liked is that Blake Crouch humanizes the effects of one person trying to make a change in their own life. What are the effects on someone else there? That it becomes like Barry wants to save his daughter who died in an accident as a teenager, but what does that wind up doing? Like does his marriage change?

Cody (42:34.922)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (42:50.102)

Does his relationship with other people change? Like, what are the effects there in the present? That was very interesting.

William (42:58.258)

And by the time we approach the moment he went back, all of those people whose pasts were changed because of Megan's existence in the world start to experience this alternate reality. And that's...

When they talked about humanity cannot process this, yes, there's global conflict, there's nuclear fallout from all of this, but there's also the, my brain cannot cope with two sets of memories, because how far back in time did he go?

Alex (43:40.054)

So he went back to 2007 to stop his daughter's death, so 12 years.

William (43:44.838)

and it was 2018. So he went back in like 11 years of memories that are in my brain that did not happen. And the brain is trying to coalesce them.

Alex (43:53.394)

And so that's part of what's driving people insane, quite literally. And then even though he saves his daughter from dying in an accident, she can't handle the fact that she was actually dead. And now that all of the memories that she has built over the past decade do not exist.

William (44:11.042)

So think about vertigo. Has anyone ever experienced vertigo? Where you sit up and all of a sudden, the phenomenon in your brain.

Alex (44:14.806)

The movie or the actual thing?

Cody (44:17.514)

I believe Dallas did so at Disney World, if we recall.

Dallas (44:23.322)

Yeah, dude.

William (44:23.542)

So you sit up like oh hello world. It's a new day and you open your eyes in the world is spinning around you So that phenomenon happens from two inputs in the brain that are not matched So you sit up there. There are these tiny little stones in your ears called otoliths

Alex (44:24.567)

dizzy world.

Alex (44:32.942)

Mm-hmm.

William (44:46.87)

Think about, like, did anybody have the hula hoop as a kid where if you tilted it up, you hear all these little stones roll down to the bottom? Yeah, okay, so.

Alex (44:56.062)

And if you rolled it on really hard concrete, it actually acts as like asphalt, and it would make the outside of the hula hoop really rough. And so you could roll it backwards. So you'd flip it up in the air with backspin, and then it would roll back to you. And that's exactly what happened to the legs of that armoire.

William (45:08.994)

Throw it and flip it, yeah. So you have.

William (45:15.45)

Exactly, exactly. But see, full circle here, full circle. Hula hoop, full circle. So you have three sets of those oriented in different 45 degree angles in your ear, okay? When you sit upright, gravity pulls the tiny little stones that are in those loops down to the bottom. They contact these little hair called cilia, which sends a trigger to your brain to tell your brain, oriented in space, I am upright. You open your eyes.

Alex (45:17.326)

Full circle, like a hula hoop.

Dallas (45:19.878)

Who will hoop that thing?

William (45:44.626)

you look around, oh, okay, the horizon is flat in my field of view. So my eyes are telling my brain I'm upright. My ears are telling my brain I'm upright. Okay, I'm at peace. Because my two sensory inputs are telling my brain the same thing. There are occasions when those little stones can get stuck. And so you lay down, okay? The stones are at the back of your head because of gravity. You're laying down.

You sit upright, those stones don't move. You open your eyes, your eyes are telling your brain, I'm upright. The stones in your labyrinths in your ear are telling your brain, no, you're actually laying down. And your brain tries to reconcile those two sensory inputs that are not matching up. And for you, the entire world is spinning around you. That's vertigo. Imagine.

If you have one set of memories playing out of life for 11 years competing with another set of memories that are completely and totally different and they are fighting for dominance and tied your brain, spoiler alert, there are instances where people try to unalive themselves because their brains cannot process this. Like we know how much you have to grab onto a table. Choke back your vomit.

When your ears and your eyes are telling your brain two different things, imagine 11 years of memories telling your

Cody (47:19.058)

Mm-hmm.

Dallas (47:19.534)

And a lot of those people that...

Alex (47:19.634)

All I'm gonna say here is I can't wait to pull out the medical moments with William Jingle all over again. I'm gonna have to track that one down.

Dallas (47:24.602)

Ha ha ha.

William (47:25.686)

Hahaha!

Cody (47:28.327)

Well, the, uh...

Dallas (47:29.222)

But also like they're dealing with the trauma of they remember dying. Like a lot of the people that had a hard time is like, is, is like dying is bad, but there's an end to it, but the trauma of dying, but somehow still being alive, but you're still dealing with the trauma of that happening to you, the pain and whatever happened, like they, they can't deal with that. Like that doesn't work.

Alex (47:33.544)

Yeah.

Cody (47:34.486)

Yeah.

William (47:34.527)

Yeah!

William (47:48.534)

Yeah.

William (47:56.214)

Like, can you imagine Dallas? So I am currently reading through your book, Jurassic Park. We all know what happened to Dennis Nedry. Okay. We honor, oh, that was Cody's, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. So we all know what happened to one Mr. Dennis Nedry. Okay, you know, that dinosaur.

Cody (47:57.058)

There was a...

Alex (48:07.394)

What happened to him?

Cody (48:08.062)

Um, that was my, my book pick.

Dallas (48:13.005)

Yeah!

Cody (48:13.959)

Yeah.

Dallas (48:22.275)

Yeah

Cody (48:22.622)

Ha ha

Alex (48:22.95)

I'm sorry, can you do that again?

William (48:25.666)

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Cody (48:26.258)

Ha ha!

Alex (48:27.606)

The fluttering effect was so good!

William (48:28.454)

So in the book, spoiler alert, not only is he spat upon, which makes him blind, but there is a moment where he is holding his intestines in his hands. And said dinosaur, said dinosaur picks him up bodily off the ground by latching onto his head. Okay, Dallas, like you said, there is an end to that.

Dallas (48:28.582)

Cody (48:31.207)

It was very good.

Alex (48:42.635)

Yummy!

Cody (48:44.403)

And that is not the Spielberg way.

William (48:57.938)

Imagine being alive and well and all of a sudden you have all these memories of being disemboweled and then a dinosaur eating your brains like... AHH!

Alex (49:05.366)

A Dinosaur.

Dallas (49:07.778)

And nobody explained to you like you're regaining dead memories. This is not real. Like those people were just living their life and all of a sudden this hits and their brain just can't cope with that trauma.

Cody (49:12.539)

Yeah.

William (49:20.99)

Yeah, the ramifications are huge. Yes, no, I.

Dallas (49:26.146)

Yeah. And I like that, like, there's not a huge butterfly effect at first. Like, there's just these false memory syndrome folks. They didn't make it so drastic that, like, if you use this just once, you're going to drastically change the history of everything. No, it's just a few people at first. And then, the more they use it, more and more and more, until the spiderweb has finally hit every...

Cody (49:43.696)

It's... Yeah.

William (49:52.782)

the architect in Hotel Memory where he's like, I've always wanted to build that building. He goes back in time builds the building and the entirety of New York wakes up with a new building on the skyline they don't remember and then suddenly they do. That's when

Alex (50:05.675)

Yep.

Dallas (50:07.578)

Yeah. But I also love it that they're like in a couple of weeks, everybody's just like, eh, that's fine. Like, like even though they're like, yeah, yeah. The news cycles moved on. Like it's not being brought up as much anymore.

William (50:13.958)

Okay, yeah, I do remember it.

Cody (50:14.514)

Kind of how we roll.

Cody (50:19.05)

I mean, the idea of traveling through time through memory has it's not a wholly unoriginal concept. It was definitely used in days of future past. But in that case, the apocalyptic the apocalyptic scenario was so grand that it's just like, who cares about the butterfly effect? Who cares about the butterfly effect? Let's step on some butterflies because nothing can be worse than this. But I

Alex (50:31.531)

Yeah, yeah.

William (50:36.77)

Yeah!

Cody (50:49.638)

Like, I just... I'll just say this. I alluded to it in the spoilers, in the spoiler-free section, but my one nitpick with the book, honestly, was Slade. Like, I needed more from Slade. Because his motivations... The villain, yeah.

Alex (50:56.802)

Get it out, get it out, I know.

Alex (51:11.03)

That's the villain who is financing. So what more did you need from him? He was a...

Cody (51:17.97)

He had a very, it felt like he had a very, you know, mustache trolling villain, you know, side to him. He's like, if you've lived as many lives as I have, you would understand things different. Humanity needs to evolve past this. Evolve how? How many lives? What has happened to your life? What has happened in your life? Like...

Alex (51:24.854)

How so?

Alex (51:36.326)

I am going to push back so hard on this because the book explains this, because Slade was actually a druggie who got a second chance at life as a lab assistant working with Helena. And what happens is that Slade is the only one, Marcus Slade is the only one who figures out what actually happens with the machine. Because Helena starts doing human tests and this deprivation tank.

Cody (51:48.359)

Yeah.

Cody (52:00.242)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (52:06.27)

in the sensory deprivation tank, she's tracking down the memories of this patient. And while they're in the tank, they have a heart attack and die. And the next thing he knows, everything resets to a few days before. And he realizes what happens. And so his whole thought is, how can I make money with this?

Cody (52:22.738)

Reality shifts.

Alex (52:34.002)

And so he is the one who uses the tank to go back in time, knowing everything that he knows from the future, to amass tons of wealth, then to finance Helena to use her chair for his benefit. And he has been going back in time over and over. He is the cause for...

Cody (52:56.039)

Yes.

Alex (53:03.958)

many of the original false memory syndromes. And then he starts doing this underground, you know, dark web, hey, you get a chance at a second life scheme. So yes, he has lived countless lives, and he's saying once you understand, like he is the one who realizes that you could go into a dead memory. And so,

Cody (53:32.681)

Yeah.

Alex (53:34.022)

He's basically telling them, reality can be whatever you want it to be. There is no mustache twirling. He's just saying once humanity has the ability to redo its own choices, that's power to the people. It's an equalizer.

William (53:50.414)

I get that, and Cody, I don't think he was necessarily mustache twirling. I just had a hard time believing that this former junkie with a new lease on life intellectually was able to figure out the most intricate complexity about the whole process.

Alex (53:55.595)

Mm-mm.

Cody (54:10.703)

And that was like...

Alex (54:10.934)

Well, he didn't. Helena did it. Helena did it, and then through all of his, so every time you go back, you retain the memories from the first life. That's why anyone who is the person who goes back, they are the ones who have the advantage in the upper hand. So he knows that as long as I just make bets on companies that I know are successful, I don't have to be the smart one. I just have to finance the smart person. And then,

time after time after time after time, he's learning more and more and more from Helena. And that's why we're

Dallas (54:38.598)

See, I feel like, yeah.

William (54:40.863)

Yeah, that's fair.

Dallas (54:43.75)

Because I felt like he was a lot dumber once the cards were all on the table. Because he was like, this is great for everyone. We should let this out. And they're like, no, you shouldn't. We've, we've seen it. Like the world ends every time. And he's like, that's not true. No, I, I did great.

Alex (54:48.746)

Yep.

Cody (55:00.455)

Yeah...

Alex (55:00.758)

Yeah, because at the very end, they go back in time to capture him before he ever... He's very dumb, because he hasn't lived any of the other experiences with Helena.

William (55:00.959)

Yeah.

Dallas (55:05.379)

Yeah.

Cody (55:07.21)

B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B

Cody (55:10.974)

Mmm.

William (55:11.91)

Yeah, when he goes back in. So toward the end of the movie, um, Barry figures out, Oh, I'm just gonna roll with it. Uh, yeah, for it to say, I hope this is developed in a movie. This would be a great movie. Um, he did it that you can reactivate dead memories. So you go back to the prime timeline.

Alex (55:16.226)

Ooh, the end of the movie, eh?

Freudian slip there, I like it.

As do I.

Alex (55:33.126)

Oh yes, I think for spoilers sake we should talk about what a dead memory is. Do you wanna?

William (55:37.702)

Yes, so the dead memory is you somebody has gone back and changed something which has altered the course of your life. You wake up and dead memories are what had happened in the previous timeline but they are kind of gray toned sepia they're a little in and out of focus they are harder to retrieve than your vivid memories from this life that you now have been laterally pushed into.

Alex (55:57.418)

Mm-hmm.

William (56:06.242)

But they had realized that you can go back into a dead memory, reactivate it before the chair was even made, before the instigating event, whenever Slade kills Helena and goes back in the chair. And that's when, yeah, Daz, I mean, I would agree with you, like they are, and Alex, that he goes to his apartment. He has all these winning lottery numbers from previous lotteries. He's committed to all the memory.

in preparation of going back in time so that he can start to amass his wealth. But living as many lives as I have that I had initially when I read the book thought he just went back once, he won the lottery, and he was able to know. He went forward in time, became the lab assistant again, killed Helena, went back, went forward a time again with having lived those consecutive 11 years over and over again. Yeah.

Cody (56:50.57)

Mm-hmm.

Cody (56:57.838)

Over. Over and over and over again.

Alex (56:59.606)

Yep. He did it over and over and over so that he could make as much money as possible every single time.

Dallas (57:07.734)

And he had maxed out his time because they, he does this and then Helena does this towards the end where it's like, there is a limit on how many times you can do this and it was what she had kind of lived like 200 years by the time. It's like, my mind is fracturing. It can't handle anymore. And he had gotten to, Slade had gotten to that point where he's like, I've done this so many times, I can't anymore. I've lived.

Cody (57:08.254)

I think.

William (57:22.399)

Yeah.

Cody (57:22.867)

Yeah.

Dallas (57:33.922)

Lifetimes after lifetimes, so I am the wisest man in the land. We should give this to everyone This is the next evolution in humanity But he hadn't he had only kept it in his selfish circle He had never looked to see what this would do to everyone else because it worked for him and I think you

Cody (57:35.37)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (57:51.659)

Right.

William (57:53.654)

And there was a premise like this. I'm sorry, go ahead, Al.

Dallas (57:57.862)

Well, you see like how selfish and narrow-minded his scope and things are whenever at the very end when the loop gets closed that he tries to kill Barry. Because Barry was kind of, I guess, trying to test him when he put blanks in the gun or put empty shells and when...

Alex (58:17.002)

Yeah, Barry goes back to Marcus's apartment before he ever killed, like before the very first loop ever exists, and sneaks into his apartment, finds the murder weapon that he will eventually kill Helena with, and swaps out his bullets for blanks.

Cody (58:27.08)

Mm-hmm.

Dallas (58:36.622)

Yeah, cause he kinda lets him know like, I know what happened, I am from the future. You don't have to do this. But as he starts to walk away, Slade pulls the gun and tries to shoot Barry, which kind of confirms to Barry, oh, he's just a turd all the way through. And then he closes the loop by making sure Slade will never do this ever again. In the most permanent way possible.

Alex (58:51.051)

Yeah.

William (58:51.644)

Yeah.

Alex (58:57.258)

Which is a great way, honestly, so Dallas and I have both talked about this individually, and I think it will probably make an appearance when we start doing one of our gaming episodes. But there's a game called Deathloop, which is a very similar, there's a group of scientists who decide that if we can contain the memories of a select few people,

then every single day we can reset everything back to the beginning. And it doesn't matter if one person dies, it would have to kill all of us to then reset. And the idea is, you know, you have to eliminate all the bad guys. There's another game called Outer Wilds, where memory is stored and it's a time loop. It's a very similar thing in that regard. But what I think Blake Crouch did exceptionally well

What are the effects on other people? And that I have not seen explored yet. And it doesn't go to the full branching timelines that the multiverse of the MCU does.

Cody (01:00:10.946)

I guess what I'm saying, what I'm getting at here is that I would have preferred a Helena, Barry, and then a few chapters dedicated to Marcus. To get things from Marcus' point of view. Just to see how all of this is affecting him, all of this is affecting his brain. Because when we... It was almost like it was disappointing, he was such a turd all the way through.

Like, instead of, you know, you have the power of the gods and you have the power of time travel, and he's just... a mogul in New York. If you know what I mean. And so it's like-

Alex (01:00:51.238)

You know, this is similar to another conversation though that we had in our chat, in our group chat, and it's about the difference between subtext and things that are explicitly said. I don't need that because the subtext is sufficient.

Cody (01:01:07.506)

Well, we talked about that same thing in Dark Matter. You said you almost felt like his character wasn't developed, whereas me and William were like, yeah, we understood where he was going. Now let's go. Like, now let's go there.

Alex (01:01:19.43)

Well, I think there's a difference between poor, like, not enough development for a plot, and the difference, like, subtext on the villain. Like, the villain doesn't need to be... I think that's where you do get into mustache-twirling territory, is when you're like, here are my grand machinations, you know, like...

Cody (01:01:32.946)

Yeah.

Cody (01:01:38.066)

Easy.

Cody (01:01:41.914)

Yeah, it was, I guess, subtext and context kind of like hits people at different times as to what they need in a story. And that's just kind of where I was with Slade. He wasn't compelling enough for me to care. He wasn't compelling enough.

Alex (01:01:58.378)

And I don't think Slade is the real villain of the story in the traditional sense. He is just the... He's an antagonist, but he is not the villain. And the villain is, I think, ultimately... Yeah, Man's Hubris, the idea that we need to be able to control every single aspect of life, and that every single aspect needs to be perfect. I think that's the real villain of the story. And one guy...

Cody (01:02:09.638)

The... the... man's hubris.

It's man's hubris, yeah.

Alex (01:02:28.766)

Yeah, he's an antagonist, but I don't think he is the real villain.

Just, just my two cents.

Cody (01:02:39.898)

Okay, fair enough, fair enough. It just kinda hit me different in that regard, in the sense that, you know, in terms of development, at least within Dark Matter, the villain or the antagonist in the story is literally the same guy as the protagonist just in a different timeline. Just, yeah.

William (01:02:57.47)

which is wild. They did dark flash better than the flash.

Alex (01:02:59.702)

Hey, here's what I'll say. In the same way that this hit—this may have hit you different, there's going to be books that all hit us all differently. And I think that's what's really fun about Book Club, is that we get to share the things we enjoy and keep it going.

Dallas (01:03:00.302)

This one, yeah.

Cody (01:03:11.878)

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

Dallas (01:03:16.134)

Yeah. I read this one. I powered through this in two days. And this is, this reminds me a lot of Billy Summers and that towards the end, they just kind of hold your head underwater with how bad things are. And so like, because I, especially the last part I read all at the same time. So when I was done, it was one of those, like, you just kind of walk around looking at the wall and you're like, I just feel bad. Like there was, that was.

Alex (01:03:20.95)

Mm-hmm

Alex (01:03:26.242)

Ugh, love it.

William (01:03:39.39)

I'm sorry.

Alex (01:03:43.121)

No, that's not... I wouldn't...

Dallas (01:03:43.49)

That went dark places. In a good way, but you're like, that jacked me up in my brain. Like...

Alex (01:03:49.074)

I definitely didn't feel dark at the end of Recursion. I felt this like sense of peace where when dark matter was...

Cody (01:03:49.203)

Ha ha ha!

Dallas (01:03:56.43)

Well, right before the... It tilts up at the end. But until the end, it's just them holding hands through the apocalypse over and over and over and over again. And so...

Alex (01:04:00.)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex (01:04:04.596)

Haha, yeah yeah.

William (01:04:04.986)

over and over and over and over again. Yeah.

Cody (01:04:06.074)

Yeah. And that's why, that's why towards the end, I was glad that the original timeline was restored, because I, I was starting to feel, A, the existential dread of repeating the apocalypse over and over again. On top of that, I was a little uncomfortable with Helena taking Barry away from his wife and child in multiple variants and multiple timelines. That, that kind of eked me out, which is why at the very end, I was like,

Alex (01:04:20.514)

Good, it did its job.

Alex (01:04:33.349)

Eh?

Cody (01:04:35.258)

I'm very glad that the original timeline was restored, and that his daughter actually existed, and that all of that was, you know, reset and restored. But like, for a solid two hours, I was like, ugh. So go on.

Alex (01:04:46.258)

And you know what the beauty of it all is though? But you know what the beauty of that is? All of it was necessary to restore the timeline. And I think that's the overarching plot is that things will happen that are imperfect. That the way Barry and Helena interact is not always perfect. Or

Cody (01:04:56.27)

Oh yes, yes of course.

William (01:05:02.43)

Yeah, and Alex, I know you consume media with kind of a critical eye, a little bit of a magnifying glass and a pen and paper. I consume media by putting myself in the position of the main character. I read Recursion before I became a father. I revisited Recursion after I had become a father to a daughter.

Cody (01:05:02.703)

If it had-

Cody (01:05:06.491)

If it had...

Alex (01:05:12.371)

A fine tooth comb, yeah.

Yes.

William (01:05:32.902)

one daughter and it wrecked me in ways that it didn't before. Dallas, I know you've got one daughter and like would I, if given the opportunity, if that unspeakable were to happen, would I go back?

Cody (01:05:36.315)

Yeah.

Dallas (01:05:54.618)

thousand percent.

Cody (01:05:55.658)

Oh, William, the entire Murphy clan would have, like, joined you in that army. Like, it just... .. But... .. But...

William (01:06:01.59)

Like would we unravel the fabric of the multiverse to get... I'm... Yes! I... Ugh. So... It... It does hit a little different in this.

Alex (01:06:09.93)

We're not going down the fatherhood rabbit hole again.

Cody (01:06:13.714)

But my point being is that, had it ended with Helena and Barry lived happily ever after, and that timeline was dead and gone, I probably would have hated the book. So I was really glad that timeline was restored. That timeline was restored, and that his daughter actually existed. And his daughter, that world, it went back to where it was. So.

Alex (01:06:26.806)

Whoa!

William (01:06:35.242)

Mm.

Dallas (01:06:37.466)

The way that it ends on a half word, I was like, you dirty dog. Because at first I was like, I hate that. And I was like, yeah.

William (01:06:40.501)

I love it.

Cody (01:06:41.683)

Yeah

William (01:06:43.578)

Now listen, Dark Matter ended the same way, where his son, he said, okay, you open the door and he opened the door and they stepped out into where I... Done.

Dallas (01:06:54.702)

Yeah. One second after I was like, I hate this. And I was like, you know what? I love this. Ha ha ha.

Alex (01:06:59.646)

You guys are going to love upgrade when I finally bring that around for book club. You're going to love upgrade.

Dallas (01:07:05.006)

I'm two thirds of the way done.

Cody (01:07:07.762)

William, Alex, do you guys remember my GSPSA? Where I started a mid-sentence and ended a mid-sentence. There's a style in that.

Alex (01:07:11.784)

Oh yes.

William (01:07:11.911)

Oh yeah.

Love it. Yeah, love it. Like, it's episode 230-something of your autobiography.

Alex (01:07:19.458)

Come on, that should give it at least a whole point more than 7.75. That takes it to at least an 8.75, right, Cody? If he's learning from you, I mean, that's just, you know, the flattery point should at least get it up another point.

William (01:07:26.198)

Yeah.

Cody (01:07:26.814)

Hahaha

Cody (01:07:32.851)

Oh please. There are some dead memories where I learned from Blake Crouch. And it just came into this timeline at that point. So...

Alex (01:07:42.862)

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

William (01:07:45.758)

Well guys, I'm glad that you... enjoyed it. I...

Alex (01:07:49.39)

I loved it and it has gained a place in probably my top five all time. Easily. Yeah.

Dallas (01:07:49.911)

I did, yeah.

William (01:07:55.926)

Wow, okay, okay. I like where round two of book club is going.

Cody (01:07:57.966)

Okay, all right.

Alex (01:07:59.146)

Yeah, I mean it was already in my Amazon cart, but when you said it I was like, click, bye, done, cool.

William (01:08:06.014)

I like where round two of book club is going. My pick, I liked just a smidge less than my first pick. Cody's pick, he's never read. This is just, this is just chaos personified and I am here for it. Well, friends, if you have made it this far, congratulations, this round is on me.

Cody (01:08:16.554)

Because I'm not allowed to use Star Wars books! Like... ..

Alex (01:08:20.768)

No!

William (01:08:32.146)

Again, we, as always, ask that you toss a coin to your Witcher. Just support us in whatever method you feel most... Gosh, I'm... Okay. Support us in whatever method that you're comfortable with. If it's the free, follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, join the pub. Great. Five stars on Apple Podcast. It's an extra three.

Alex (01:08:53.098)

We like those five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I mean, if I'm being honest, who needs money when you have the validation? You know, like it's...

Dallas (01:08:57.179)

Yeah.

William (01:09:02.726)

Exactly. Extra three seconds to your day. Tap the five star. And, um, but if you're feeling a little extra frog and you want to support us on Patreon, help us produce the show. patreon.com slash doctor and lawyer. We'd love to have you over there. Um, I am putting together the, I believe it's for Abed and.

Cody (01:09:03.646)

Find us in person and give us hugs. I'm a hugger.

Alex (01:09:22.678)

A bit, a bit, a bit.

William (01:09:25.006)

Abed and Troy's Cup of Joe and hire I'm putting together the Christmas boxes as we speak And I'm very excited about those but with that guys. I'm gonna head out of here. Thank you I'm glad that you enjoyed the book and with that I'm William

Dallas (01:09:41.135)

Dallas.

Cody (01:09:41.299)

Cody.

Alex (01:09:42.654)

And I'm... wait a second. Did... did... are we talking about community? I feel like the four of us just met for the first time. Oh, why is my nose bleeding? What's going on? Wait a second. How did we get here?

William (01:09:53.106)

Alex, why is your nose... Like, dude, are you...

William (01:09:59.701)

Okay. I- wh- I-

Alex (01:10:02.194)

Oh no!

Cody (01:10:02.494)

Bye!

Alex Christian

Ep. 93 - Book Club - Recursion [Transcript]

Ep. 84 - Who Wants to Be a Galleonaire? [Transcript]

Ep. 94 - Spooky Table Topics! [Transcript]